This is the blog of Adam Kalsey. Unusual depth and complexity. Rich, full body with a hint of nutty earthiness.
This is the blog of Adam Kalsey. Unusual depth and complexity. Rich, full body with a hint of nutty earthiness.
Excerpt: Why Firefox isn’t ready for an aggressive marketing campaign. Read the whole article…
After testing the 0.9.3 version of Firefox I was thoroughly disappointed. And not just because of the UI bugs.
It concerns me that Firefox is being pushed as a “safer” alternative to Internet Explorer. It remains a beta product and has a serious spoofing issue as the browser is written in XUL (application markup language), yet will execute remote XUL with no warning. A spoofer can completely re-write the interface of the browser, right down to the auto-completing address bar (with any address you like!), and spoofing the SSL padlock and certification screen.
http://www.chrisbeach.co.uk/core/scripts/entryViewer.php?ID=5107
Many Mozilla Evangelists (an organised phenomenon) are aggressively attacking the reputation of Internet Explorer in order to try to claw market share for their own product. I’ve seen some ridiculous arguments, like one chap who responded to a forum post about server outages on www.sxc.hu “it appears to be better in Firefox.”
And the problem is, the layman will see these and be none the wiser. It’s a cynical campaign, and like you say, very counter-productive. Some of the UI bugs are very obvious. Ultimately, by making a fuss about security and spyware, the “evangelists” only diminish consumer confidence in the Internet.
The open-source community used to demand that MS lock down security in Windows and IE. Now MS have spent almost $1bn and 1 year on this effort. The freely available Service Pack 2 for Windows XP seriously diminishes the threat from malware. And how do the evangelists and open-sourcists respond? They get straight to work trying to convince others that SP2 is “dangerous” and “flawed.”
I feel sorry for the computer industry as a whole to suffer at the hands of such self-serving zealots
I’ve just installed FF 0.9.3 over the top of 0.9.1 and nothing broke… so there must be some improvement in upgradability.
As a mac user it would be nice if FF worked the way it does and used the cocoa framework (nice screen widgets, preference dialogs, emacs key bindings). As a web designer the plugins and standards support make FF an indespensible tool.
I agree with your point that what FF is lacking is a convincing marketing campaign aimed at novice users. The benefits, while real, need to be expressed in terms un-web-savvy people will understand.
The browse happy initative (http://www.browsehappy.com) goes a long way to motivating people to upgrade their browsers. It is probably a better campaign to support than the ‘get Firefox’ one if you want to encourage people to upgrade their browsers.
Excerpt: Why I don't recommend Firefox: Adam doesn't think that Firefox is ready to be unleashed on all users just yet. He makes some good points. Firefox right now is very good for an experienced net user, but is not at...
Personally I see it like this, if you haven’t used a program much, then keep your thoughts to yourself. Badmouthing a program does the rest of the interested people nothing but push them away. So far over have of our clients have “converted” over from IE and are extremely happy.
Personally, I see it like this… If you can’t read (or won’t be bothered to do so) and only want to respond with knee jerk flames to someone offering criticism of something you like, then you should keep your coments to yourself because they only serve to make you look like an utter moron.
“I don’t think I ever have recommended Firefox. I use it …”
But then again I shouldn’t expect less from someone with an ego problem large enough to call themselves TechGod.
You may also be interested to know that Asa Dotzler has expressed appreciation for the feedback. You see, most people are very happy to get advice on how to make their product and their marketing better.
You go ahead and live in your fantasy world that all is perfect with Mozilla. But if you want to play with the big kids and overtake a product that is installed by default on 90% of new computers sold, you’ll have to come out of your treehouse at some point and face reality. You’ll have to build and market a product that’s better than the competition by leaps and bounds. Because the average consumer isn’t going to install a new piece of software that offers them very little perceived benefit over what they’re using now.
So why don’t you take your pent-up teenage rage and put it to something constructive like fixing some of the Firefox bugs? Or you can just continue to pretend the bugs don’t exist and go back to playing with your action figures. It’s all the same to me.
Excerpt: Adam Kalsey is a highly respected blogger and developer. I take notice when he writes something, and I was a little surprised to see that he does not recommend Firefox for the Average Joe User. I have to disagree on this point with Adam. IE is dange...
Another in the long line of overcorrections to a surfeit of good press a new technology receives.
People who are too clueless to know what a browser is should have their clueful friends come over and explain it to them. Then they’ll know. Those same friends can switch them away from IE/Win.
Seriously, you can’t expect browser makers to optimize their products for people who (as is implied in the posting here) type every single thing they want to get to, even URLs, into the Yahoo search box.
While many Internet concepts are hard (what is DNS?), the idea that you use a “browser” to “browse” Web sites is not hard. We can reasonably expect a certain degree of audience participation in the task of improving the browsing experience.
On the other hand, Mozilla could easily write FAQs and benefits lists for non-technical people and for technical people. The same concepts can be explained in different terms.
Chris, I tried to test that spoof in my Firefox install (out-of-the-box defaults, only extension is Web Developer toolbar which I disabled), and got… an XML error, choking on an unknown entity. Who would have thought that XML’s draconian error-handling would come in handy like that…
Chris: I would be very interested to hear about any unpublished security issues you’ve run into in Firefox (above and beyond the XUL issues mentioned).
You can’t expect browser makers to optimize their products for people who type every single thing they want to get to, even URLs, into the Yahoo search box.
Why not? What I’m suggesting is that we start to understand what the target market needs rather than just building something that sounds interesting. Who’s the application designed for? Find out what they want, how they work. Spend a few hours or days in a usability lab watching users and what they do as the use the Web. Find out what problems they have and “fix the internet” for them.
The only way to make a user stop using Internet Explorer is to give them something compelling to switch to. And the only way to do that is to find out what they really need.
It’s easy to forget the difficulty that most computer users have with understanding the most basic computing concepts. Again, it’s not that they are stupid, but they don’t spend all day working on this stuff.
Excerpt: After reading Adam Kalsey's post about why he doesn't recommend Firefox, I can tell he really understands the general computer-using population....
Excerpt: Why I don't recommend Firefox. I disagree with every word, but it's an elegant argument....
Excerpt: Adam Kalsey obviously hasn’t bothered to actually use Mozilla Firefox for a reasonable amount of time before coming to the conclusion that Firefox isn’t ready for mainstream use. Had he done so, he would know that Firefox is already much...
I think that it’s pointless to target marketing at users who don’t know what a browser is. The amount of education it would take to actually make them aware of the issues and what they have to do to get around them is an almost impossible feat.
In my experience, those sort of people use whatever is put in front of them, so it is far better to target the people who organise the technology for these people, who have the greatest influence over their computing environment — be they system administrators or just knowledgable relatives.
It’s much easier to reach these people, because we at least know some of their language — but they’re not necessarily web developers — and I think that a lot of people working with the Web forget that there are lots of technology professionals who are not aware or don’t care about the whole Firefox vs. IE issue. Convert those people before you think about converting the unwashed masses, and you’ll have a powerful force at your side.
The problem is that “normal” users would love a replacement for Internet Explorer, largely because of the endless problems with spyware and popups. They don’t care about tabbed browsing, extensions, or anything else… They just want a browser that works.
My uncle was having those common problems with Internet Explorer, so I told him to install Firefox. The installation went fine, but he had several questions about using it.
His first, unbelievably, was one that Adam mentioned: he couldn’t figure out how to use the Search and Location bars because they lacked a “Go” button. I told him about hitting “Enter,” and also added the “Go” button for the Location bar. (There’s no button option for the Search bar.)
His second problem was with a blocked popup window that he actually wanted. I showed him how to unblock it.
His third was that he lost his “Favorites” in the transition, and couldn’t figure out how to add new “Favorites.” I imported his old bookmarks (which should have been handled by the installation, but weren’t), and showed him that Bookmarks were his old Favorites.
If the Firefox team really wants to make the leap to a complete drop-in IE replacement for all users, they’re very, very close. They just need to sit behind their relatives while they make the upgrade, and make the appropriate changes.
Dennis, in addition to the XUL spoofing issue, Firefox is also vulnerable to the ByteVerify trojan which can break through the java sandbox and access the filesystem, registry etc. Bugzilla’s tracker (18000+ current bugs) has the real low-down on Mozilla browser issues, and Secunia is fairly up-to-date with the major published security issues:
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?queryformat=&shortdesctype=allwordssubstr&shortdesc=&product=Browser&longdesctype=substring&longdesc=&bugfileloctype=allwordssubstr&bugfileloc=&statuswhiteboardtype=allwordssubstr&statuswhiteboard=&keywordstype=allwords&keywords=&bugstatus=NEW&bugstatus=ASSIGNED&bugstatus=REOPENED&emailassignedto1=1&emailtype1=exact&email1=&emailassignedto2=1&emailreporter2=1&emailqacontact2=1&emailtype2=exact&email2=&bugidtype=include&bug_id=&votes=&chfieldfrom=&chfieldto=Now&chfieldvalue=&cmdtype=doit&order=Bug+Number&field0-0-0=noop&type0-0-0=noop&value0-0-0=
I configured firefox for my dad to use. Set up google as his home page (we have a 24 hour internet connection).
If he wants to go somewhere, he can type whatever it is he wants in any of the text boxes on screen and it will get him there, or close enough so he knows what to do next.
My dad is a clueful user. He will read stuff that comes up on screen and try to understand it. He’ll make a note and ask me later if he doesn’t understand.
You fail to mention the one major reason why people are moving to Firefox - security. Any of the other “flaws” you mention about Firefox are pedantic when you consider the serious nature of the security flaws in IE.
Why not? What I’m suggesting is that we start to understand what the target market needs rather than just building something that sounds interesting. Who’s the application designed for? Find out what they want, how they work. Spend a few hours or days in a usability lab watching users and what they do as the use the Web. Find out what problems they have and “fix the internet” for them.
If it worked like that, all those people you are describing would be using set-top-boxes to use the internet, they wouldn’t be using (“real”) PCs. Apparently it does not work like that in this case.
I also agree, that the Firefox Homepage is not doing it wrong, but they are simply not targeting the people you are describing. And they are not doing this by mistake, but for strategic reasons, as have been explained by lots of other comments. You have probably heard of chandler, which is supposed to become a MS Outlook Replacement. Have a look at their roadmap, and their strategy for adoption: http://www.osafoundation.org/Chandler-Product_Roadmap.htm#theoryofadoption Look familiar?
I am not saying that chosen way is the best, but it helps the discussion go in a constructive direction, if some motivation beyond “they didn’t know better” is assumed and argued with.
The only way to make a user stop using Internet Explorer is to give them something compelling to switch to. And the only way to do that is to find out what they really need.
I can only comment from my own personal experience, and don’t know wether this can be generalized, but: The people I know that don’t know what a browser is, and are only concerned with using their PC as a tool, would never install Firefox or any other Software no matter how good a job the Website did with finding out needs and delivering the perfect software with the perfect marketing. Instead they would ask me (or some other at least barely PC-literate person) to do it for them, because they don’t want anything to break.
The only people I know that actually install Third-Party Software are, at least to a degree, interested in the technical side, that they will read and try to learn, or just simply experiment if it seems worth the trouble. And those are also people that would not be “totally” lost on the firefox homepage.
IMHO the strategy that Mozilla is following with Firefox is OK. They are going after geeks or wannabe geeks, because they are the ones that influence the “regular” internet crowd. And this strategy is flanked by activities like www.browsehappy.com and the like, that raises the interest of other people and IMHO achieves what you are expecting from Mozilla.
Do I recommend Firefox for Novice-Users? Yes, although from a “necessity”-viewpoint IE with SP2 is no worse than Firefox, with some help and introduction in the long-term they are better off with Firefox, IMHO. Because IE Development is back into hiatus after the minimal imporvements of IE. Also: Installing SP2 also breaks some of the expected behaviour of IE users. So while they have to re-learn stuff anyway, I at least want to make sure it is worth their effort.
Philip, a “clueful user” is, IMHO, what every web surfer should try to become. And this is not complicated but simply a matter of learning. My dad is such a user, either. Anytime he doesn’t understand an error message (sometimes, there are errors. They are inevitable. Network problems is an issue the user has to learn about!) or sth like that, he asks afterwards. And next time it happens, he probably knows how to handle it. Or he simply asks again. No problem!
I used to have IE and firefox visable on the desktop. I came home one day to find myself infested with spyware. Seems my husband had been using IE when I wasn’t around (but used firefox when I was at home) No amount of cajoling worked on my husband until I had spent a couple hours cursing the difficult removal of some spyware. The guilt was enormous with offers of purchasing spyware removal tools etc. I’m an experienced computer user, my husband is not. He was forced after that experience to learn how to use firefox. If he has questions, he asks.
I don’t think your arguments as to why this is not ready for mass distribution are warrented. If my husband who doesn’t understand that the right mouse button serves a purpose and can use firefox - anyone can. You just have to install it - go cold turkey on the IE and teach them …
ps: opera doesn’t have a “go” button either
Excerpt: Adam Kalsey is the first person I've seen who does not recommend Firefox as the default browser for the masses. I find this position curious because his point about what things do and don't work in Firefox are pithy for a pre-release product compare...
Excerpt: In "Why I don't recommend Firefox" schreibt Adam Kalsey, warum er den jungen Mozilla Browser Firefox für den "Otto Normalverbraucher" für ungeeignet hält. (gefunden über Google Blogoscoped) Firefox bugs die dringe
Excerpt: Frédéric schreibt in seinem Blog, warum er Firefox empfehlen würde. Damit steht er auf ganz anderer Position als Adam Kalsey, der Firefox noch zu viele Kinderkrankheiten und Unzulänglichkeiten (auf Englisch) vorwirft. Tatsache ist doch, dass jeder Brow...
The same people who might shy away from Firefox for the reasons you mentioned are usually the same people that figured out how to use Napster or Kazaa to download their music.
If people want something badly enough, they’ll figure it out. All these P2P file sharing programs didn’t need a grassroots campaign.
As you mentioned, most of the items listed on the website probably just go over the heads of regular people - Firefox needs to be much more compelling to be the next “must have” software for the average person.
“I feel sorry for the computer industry as a whole to suffer at the hands of such self-serving zealots”
Okay…who let the MS-zealot in here?
Anyway don’t fall for Chris Beach’s straw man arguements. By any account Firefox is still a better, safer browser. The idea that migrating to Firefox from IE is anything but a massive win for standards and safety is only one that a total MS zealot could buy into. Notice his jabs at the Open Source community at large. This guy obviously has a grudge against OSS in general and just wants people to stick to commercial proprietary technologies better or worse. I’ve installed Firefox for many people including secretaries who somehow despite all is claimed problems have gotten along just fine.
And sorry but making qualms about spyware IS the right thing to do. Millions and millions of dollars and workhours are spent by hapless consumers because MS couldn’t be bothered to design a browser that is even remotely safe to use. The horror stories I’ve experienced because of IE are too many and too painful to recount. After I’ve spent hours working on a spyware infested machine and the client gets the bill suddenly the realization that using IE can cost real money in downtime becomes real obvious. Internet Explorer IS a threat to consumer and business saftey and should be avoided when possible. These consumers who Chris says that mozilla advocates take advantage of are much better off with Firefox then they ever will be with Internet Explorer.
Since we’re all having fun whacking Adam with trackbacks, here’s a note about a Firefox bug that inadvertantly resurrects the most horrific HTML tag ever (see the bottom of the post):
http://www.gadgetopia.com/2004/09/07/TextbooksHitTheTorrents.html
There, Adam, I threw you a bone. Now, back to bashing you…
I think you really go overboard in this article. I have still to meet someone who transitioned from IE to FF and had a bad experience. Most users have either found ways to do what what they wanted to, or adapted to better features. Users are probably not as dumb as you make them out to be!
Excerpt: Why I don't recommend Firefox - Adam Kalsey sums up some of the troubles with Firefox. [via]
While i use and love Firefox i tend to agree that it really isn’t for novices and as such only has limited appeal at the moment. No matter what you think of Firefox and how much you may or may not love it,the point about the article is that in its current form it’s not going be taken up by 90% of the people out there. I’m all for offering a small download but Firefox’s initial layout and tab behaviour (it still opens seperate windows until you add change it or add an extension) will just confuse the initial convert. Firefox is the best browser out there in my opinion,but only for those with a moderate degree of net savvy,which is probably not a large percentage of the target market sadly.
“Aggressively marketing Firefox before it is a completely stable product is dangerous.”
Are Windows XP, IE 6.0 or any Linux distro completely stable products?
I don’t think so.
Excerpt: Adam Kalsey is a well respected developer in the community. So when he wrote a blog post "Why I don't recommend Firefox", people sat up and noticed what he was talking about. So did I. Adam makes a strong comment and justfiably so that Fi...
Too bad I can’t mod the trolls down on my blog.
Is Linux being marketed to the general public? Is it a successful product outside the geek space?
Firefox strives to be a mainstream product.
In order to win marketshare from IE, Firefox must be better than IE. And not just by a little bit, but by leaps and bounds. If you want to overcome a product that comes for free with 90% of computers sold today, people need to be compelled to switch.
Pointing out that IE isn’t perfect is irrelevant. It already has the market share. Perhaps you’ve heard of inertia. Things tend to stay in the state they’re currently in. People will tend to stick with the product they currently use.
Although I have been a user of Firebird/fox for over a year now, and very happy with it, I have to say I agree with a few of the points made by Adam.
The developers are an arrogant bunch, forcing a product to market on a meaningless, arbitrary deadline, rather than concentrating on nailing the bugs and usability pitfalls of the default install before launch. No technophobe wants to download extensions or customise their browser, yet they may find the default install of Firefox a bit too spartan forr them to feel comfortable.
People are afraid of change - it’s in their nature, and I don’t think the Firefox marketing bods can see that through the rose tinted spectacles.
I see alot of comments about the avg. user. Either this avg. person is a complete dolt or most of you are mistaken about how smart your neighbour(friend,father etc.) is. let’s face it argueing over a browser is insane. They are all basically the same. Its like arguing about where all the dials go on your dashboard
I love Maxthon (www.maxthon.com). It’s based on IE. My favourite feature is that i only need to drag a link an inch further to open it in a new tab. It’s the faster way to open a window. I open hundreds of links, so that makes my day.
“What I’m suggesting is that we start to understand what the target market needs rather than just building something that sounds interesting. Who’s the application designed for? Find out what they want, how they work. Spend a few hours or days in a usability lab watching users and what they do as the use the Web. Find out what problems they have and “fix the internet” for them.”
I deal with people like this everyday at work. Internet Explorer doesn’t necesarily work for anyone. Those people that “type everything into the yahoo search bar” do not know anything besides the “Blue E”. I deal with people that have been using a computer for many years and when you tell them to adjust their resolution they say “how do I do that?” Trying to “fix the internet” for these people probably isn’t even a possibility. I’ve talked with people that have broadband internet access and still keep their aol account not because they want the email address or the aol features but because they think they need it to connect to the internet. Are these people really going to know what they need or want in a browser. Not at all. All the know is, “I click the ‘Blue E’ and the internet comes up”. Some people don’t care enough to learn what they need to do to use the internet or their browsers features effectively. So why should my browser be designed around what they need? They don’t know what they need!
Yes and no. While i agree with you that those issues are there, i don’t feel it is a showstopper for most at this point. Most of the users you talk about are not even aware enough to know that they have a choice. They picked up and used IE because that is what was fed to them.
While FF is lacking in a few looks and feels areas, it is still very usable and with a few extentions, even more so. What? They wont understand this whole extentions crap? Things are too technical for them? Most of these users learned IE’s idosyncracies, with a little help from us.… they can do the same for FF.
Very few of the people we recomend FF to will switch… that’s ok, because it’s a start. While the browser is not perfect, it is also not tied into the kernel space, which i think it too big a flaw to ignore.
I love firefox. I’ve made it a point to recommend it on my blog, to my friends, and am in the process of trying to convince my office IT that it would be a good choice for our company. That being said, I agree with Kalsey on some points.
There’s a huge population of users who equate the IE with Internet. Without a go button they’re lost. They download free pop-up blockers from their ISP’s, install spyware screensavers, and use emoticons in all their e-mails.
Firefox doesn’t stand a chance at gaining converts from these people unless 1) it replaces IE on their desktop as the default browser when they buy the computer or 2) It comes bundled with AOL/Earthlink/Roadrunner etc.
After the last BHO scare I tried getting a few family members who regularly use online banking to give firefox a try. The furthest I got was “help you install a new browser…” and the eyes went blank. They were OK with installing BHO Demon, but a browser? No way.
Maybe there’s a way to make a dumbed down Firefox campaign that’s along the lines of AOL marketing: Faster! Safer for your family! Easy to use! Combine it with a default theme that’s full of people icons and you may have a contender.
One point I forgot to make which zz touched on is the fact that I feel people don’t choose IE it is forced upon them. They buy a new machine and it is there. No options, no choices. Maybe there are plenty of IE users out there that would love tabbed browsing but just do not know that it does exist, so like I said before IE doesn’t necessarily work for anybody. It’s just what they where given. I work at a little computer store and for the past 3 months now we have been installing Mozilla on every new machine and recommending it to everyone that brings in a machine loaded with spyware. I feel Microsoft made a big mistake by integrated the browser into the OS. I’ll take my chances with the Firefox spoofing anyday over the swiss cheese that is IE. If Microsoft was to install an icon for Firefox on the desktop and the start menu with every new OS install next to the IE icons do you really think that current usage stats for the browsers would be the same??? Although, I do have to agree with the author because I don’t recommend Firefox to most people. I usually recommend Mozilla. It is more complete for the average user. Like zz many pepole won’t understand the extensions, but with mozilla I feel they aren’t needed as much.
View more than one web page in a single window
You have to be a serious power user to appreciate that feature. Many people only have a single window open all the time anyway. If they need another window, they close the first one.
That’s not true, at least that’s 75% wrong in my family since even my 2 kids (4th and 7th grader) they know and like to view more than one web page in a single window … the other 25% is true is because my wife she never use any browser.
I personally use both daily 50/50 and honestly agree with the author. ASP(.NET or otherwise) does NOT render well. Period. Since its a premier markup hatchet-job langauge that many developer uses: that’s strike one. But FF DOES do PHP (and simple textfields in forms!) correct so I guess I can’t really use either as my main ‘browser’ huh?
FF’s a geek’s browser, plain and simple. If the OS guys think that Mom & Pop are going to install AND use a ‘browser thing’ AND replace IE with it, then “puff, puff, pass man!”
Getting my mom to understand that the internet was a whole bunch of computers connected took four hours and she still asked ‘so where are all the wires for the computers kept?’ and ‘does my cup go in this pop-out tray?’
The browser doesn’t matter at all when it comes to the rendering of PHP or ASP pages. Both ASP and PHP are entirely taken care of on the server, which doesn’t much care what browser you’re using. Each of these server-side technologies sends plain HTML to the browser. The HTML that is sent to the browser is created by the Web developer, not the server-side technology. So if you’re having a problem viewing an ASP page in Firefox, blame the Web developer for writing crappy HTML.
Adam, I think you hit the nail on the head. It’s obvious from a lot of the posts on here that the geeks reading your blog spend very little time with the unwashed masses. I’m a PC repair tech by trade, and on average talk to 100-200 users in a week’s time. I’ve only recommended Firefox to a handful, for precisely the reasons you list. The average home or office user has barely enough of a clue to install a program, let alone migrate their entire online user experience from one app to another. Many people I talk to have no idea what a desktop is, what a browser is, how to search for something online, etc. These people open the “Internet” icon, type something into the box, and if it’s not a url, let MSN find some links for them. That’s literally all they can do. Firefox is totally not ready for those people. I guess the biggest question is if Mozilla is targetting these people as an audience or not. If not, then no big deal. Firefox is awesome for a lot of people, and while I still use IE more often, I find it to be the best non-M$ browser I’ve ever used. If the users above ARE the target audience, then Mozilla is in serious trouble.
Also, I’d like to mention, that CSS doesn’t work correctly in firefox. They claim it’s not a bug. Maybe it’s supposed to be a feature. But my css not only worked in explorer but also in opera and validated as compliant by the w3c. It’s a mozilla bug that they don’t want to fix or admit to.
“Why are they talking about engines here? I though this was something for my internet, not my car.” You lose your credibility with a statement like that. How can you try to present yourself as someone who knows something and someone who knows nothing at the the same time. P.S Why is an e-amil address required??????
A number of people have had trouble understanding that my comments on the Firefox homepage are from the perspective of a typical person stumbling upon the site. I’ve added a sentance to the entry to clarify that. I added Let’s look over that page and put ourselves into the user’s shoes…
Last year, I worked with some of the most clueless computer users I’d ever met, and we had to share computers. After repeatedly removing spyware and other crap from these computers every couple of weeks, I finally removed the IE icon from the desktop and Start menus, installed Firefox, and changed the name of the shortcut on the desktop to read “Internet Explorer.” I never heard a complaint from anybody, and I never had to remove the spyware again. Let me reiterate: these were the most clueless people in the world. And they got by just fine with Firefox.
This proves two things to me: (1) clueless users can use Firefox, and (2) as others have remarked, such users eat what they’re fed, whether it’s IE or Firefox.
I use FF almost exclusively (99.5% of the time), but I have occasional problems with it. Nonetheless, these problems are minute when compared to the crap IE put me through.
Actually, that’s not quite true of ASP: it cares a fair bit what browser you use, and out of the box there are two browsers: IE, which gets HTML 4 with CSS, and every other browser on earth (known as “downlevel” browsers in ASPeak), which get HTML 3.2 with font tags and quite a bit of NN4.x-specific crud. Sometimes, the only difference is that the markup is even crappier, other times things break. I know someone, not a novice to blogging or Microsoft technologies, who wrote a comment script that looked just fine in IE, and thanks to the “downlevel” markup, rendered with a two line, twenty character textarea in Firefox.
It’s possible, with some care and effort, and some replacement third-party controls, to have your ASP look and work just as well in Firefox as in IE, but if you just fire it up and use the defaults, which is one of the biggest markets for ASP, it won’t.
“Firefox 0.9 is the award winning preview of Mozilla’s next generation browser.
What’s a preview? Does that mean I can’t use it. Is it like a demonstration or something? And what’s a next-generation browser? I thought this thing was supposed to help me use the Internet.”
And what? I’m french and I understand english… So, I know what means “Preview”… like natives english-speaking peopleView more than one web page in a single window
You have to be a serious power user to appreciate that feature. Many people only have a single window open all the time anyway. If they need another window, they close the first one.
You joke, No???? the wheel mouse is not enough bigger????Use the adaptive search system to allow you to search an infinite number of engines.
Why are they talking about engines here? I though this was something for my internet, not my car.
“search engine” the normaly people does the relation.…. ppfffff…“the new Easy Transition system imports all of your settings - Favorites, passwords and other data from Internet Explorer and other browsers.
I don’t know what that means. Maybe if I get this thing, the way I use the Internet is going to change. All I want is a way to use the Internet without getting all that junk. I don’t want to have to change my passwords and stuff to do that.”
hum… What it means??? At the installation of Firefox (hum oh! that’s true… IE don’t need a installation… woh!) One Click—-> all my prefered sites comes to the BIG BIG Button called “Bookmarks”… hum well ok, maybe the sheep-whitout-brain-people will not find the features usefull or understanding much…I know nobody is perfect, there is no perfect paradise at Mozilla fundation… but, IE is old, not reliable… and so far, not funny at all…
Let’s rock
i think Mozilla.org FireFox is suitable especially for those users want to sruf the internet more seamlessly , more secure and more fun. i think everyone IE user think that: Loading a webpage in IE IS ULTRA SLOW.…..but in mozilla.org FireFox…the speed is much faster also IE have lots of vulnerabilities…how about mozilla.org FireFox? NOT MUCH.…just a little vulnerabilities.…right?
ps …my english may be too bad…right?
Personally, I feel that some of your points are valid, but some of them are not so valid. Your criticism of the naming of firefox as a “browser” in particular sounds a bit silly to me. What else are they going to call it?! I’m not entirely sure where you were going with the whole “big E icon gets me onto the Internet” - what’s so hard about teaching them to click on the circular orange and blue icon on their desktop? It’s hardly any worse a metaphor of browsing the web than the letter “e”. As for integrating the search bar and the address bar - that’ll just break the experience for more experienced browsers. Sounds like a bad idea to me - a better idea would be to put the search bar configuration into the View item - ironically sort of like with Internet Explorer.
As for “The new Easy Transition system imports all of your settings - Favorites, passwords and other data from Internet Explorer and other browsers.” - personally, I think that you’re understimating most users. I don’t think that sentence is all that terrible unclear, however I’m willing to admit I could be wrong on that one.
The other things you mention were constructive, though I suspect if that’s the best that you’ve come up with then FireFox really HAS come a long way! After all, I’m sure you remember the crudulence of Netscape 4.7x.…
Excerpt: Griezelig, maar o zo waar. Veel mensen beseffen niet dat veel mesnen niet beseffen dat er een verschil is tussen URL en e-mailadres. Dat een mail-account niet vasthangt aan het mailprogramma of omgekeerd ("ik heb twee e-mailadressen: hotmail en outlook").
“How about integrating the address bar and the search field? If what I entered isn’t a URL, pass it to Google.” uhm? Try type google in the adressbar? Google opens! Wow nice? How did this work? Well Firefox did a i feel lucky google search… tricky, isn’t it?
I think you’ve hit several nails on the head…
Developers (and technical people in general) tend to overestimate the technical capabilities of the population at large
Wait a second, these so-called normal users are happening by your blog?
Well now we know what you think of us. I am offended and I hope many others are too.
I bet you most of the features you mention are already in the pipeline. I mean these guys just got started.
ps check out www.mailinator.com if you don’t like including your email address when you post something on the internet.
I find it curious that so many people attack first and question later on this piece. Just take an honest look and get your elitist heads out of your butts and think about real users for 30 seconds, eh, folks?
I’ve been working in user support (in one form or another) since about 1988, and I have to say, all the points Adam makes here here are quite salient.
Folks, face the music: Firefox, like all the “consumer” Linuxes that I’ve seen, is not consumer-ready. It’s close, but it’s hampered by the fact that no real usability people have approve/disapprove authority on features. From a usability perspective, both Firefox and Thunderbird are substantially inferior to Mozilla.
Mozilla, by the same token, is far superior to Firefox and Thunderbird in just about every important respect. Sure, the main download is a little bigger, but it still takes up a lot less disk space than Firefox+Thunderbird. (And why, pray, by the way, is disk space even an issue anymore?) It starts faster, its UI is consistent with older Netscape products, it’s more stable (yes, FIREFOX DOES CRASH, guys), and — here’s the kicker — it’s not a “preview”.
I don’t recommend Firefox. In fact, I recommend against it — in favor of Mozilla. I recommend Mozilla strongly to anyone who’s skilled enough to do a software install, with the caveat that things will be different from what they’re accustomed to. Some of Adam’s points apply to Mozilla, too, but they’re relatively minor ones.
BTW, comparing usability of any email app to Outlook is unfair. Outlook is far too low a target. Outlook is unusable. “Better than Outlook” is like saying “Better than a Stanley Steamer”.
To Phil Rignalda — I’m quite sure I don’t understand what you mean when you say that “…every other browser on earth (known as “downlevel” browsers in ASPeak), … get HTML 3.2 with font tags and quite a bit of NN4.x-specific crud.”
I’ve written an awful lot of ASP, and it would have been real, real surprising to me if the ASP I wrote somehow dynamically modified the HTML that I told it to spit out based on the browser it was serving to.
In fact, it would have been pretty nice if it could have done that. Would have solved a lot of browser-compatability problems. But it didn’t. So I guess I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Adam>
Well… (a few of these things have already been pointed out)
-Google Lucky search is already integrated into the URL-bar and has been for ages.
-The spoof thing has been fixed in the last few days. (Correct me if I’m wrong.) http://www.squarefree.com/burningedge/
-We’re still at 0.9.3. Guess why the 1.0 final release has been postponed until late October? Because the Firefox lead team (Ben) has realised that all these UI glitches as well as install/update problems need to be fixed.
I feel pretty sure that by 1.0 final we will have a prouct with close to zero UI glitches of the type you mentioned. Also, I’m pretty sure they will improve the Mac user experience too, since they’ve made a separate release date for Mac OS X.
Right now, at 0.9.3, I agree that Firefox is only usable for no-clue people if they get help with installations and such, but once installed it does not really have many showstoppers for this group of people either.
ps. I agree they should add the Go-button, as well as the New Tab button.
Excerpt:
Adam Kalsey has had the temerity to criticize the Kewl Kidz browser, Firefox, and thinks that maybe, just maybe, aggressively marketing it prior to "1.x" isn't such a good idea: "Aggressively marketing Firefox before it is a completely stable product i
Excerpt:
A few more thoughts on the Kalsey-Firefox Affair. It's another illustration of Tech Macho Bullshit in action: If you're not "clueful" enough to see how much b
I use Firefox as my default browser on my PC, and I recommend it to anyone who complains about pop-ups and other IE shortcomings. However, I don’t actively market it for all the reasons in this entry. Fact is, most of the folks I talk to who aren’t computer geeks do not realize that the application you use to see websites is something that you can change. Once Firefox is at 1.0 and upgrading it is easy (no uninstalling and backing up profiles, reinstalling extenstions, etc.) then I will probably push it a little harder to people I work with.
I do actively recommend people move to Firefox, (I also childishly mock Microsoft, on occasion).
However, this article contains a couple of good points, well made. If Mozilla people are out there reading this, then they’ll be sensible to make a note of these criticisms and address them.
I introduced my mother to Firefox (version 9) and she hasn’t had ANY trouble using it as her default browser. Interestingly, she has not had much experience of using the web (and luckily for her not had much experience of using Internet Explorer) so to her she knows no better.
She uses the built in search fine, and I never told her to hit return to get the answers.
“Normal”users learn. Unless they are underestimated. It seems very odd to use something as incomprehensible as ‘MyYahoo’ to illustrate that people don’t understand what an ‘engine’ is.
Go ahead and recommend Firefox. The people you seem to think are dim-witted will likely thank you.
Excerpt: Respected developer Adam Kalsey set a cat amongst the pigeons (well, maybe just a kitten) on Monday, with a blog post entitled 'Why I don't recommend Firefox'...
Certainly they can learn. But they won’t. They won’t even get that far. They’ll click the “Get Firefox” link, maybe download it if they understand the tech mumbo-jumbo enough to see why they should. And if they do download it and install it, many will be put off by the many problems long before they give it a chance.
what the hell do you recommend?
you’ve nicely pointed out problems in Firefox. that’s fine.
but I personally know people who have lost thousands of dollars, had their identities stolen, and were being cyber stalked.
They weren’t using any version of Mozilla. I know I know, the first thing you’ll do is blame the people, you’ll blame Outlook, you’ll blame stupidity or whatever else you can think up.
and probably a lot of that is true.
but here’s some more truth: stock xp+ie+outlook is what most people run, for better or worse, regardless of their ignorance.
those people are screwed.
What’s sad here about all the pro-FF comments, especially the ones the so derisively snark at Adam’s original post, is that most of you are saying things like “When I installed FF on my mom’s computer…” How many of your parents or non-techie siblings and relations went out on their own and installed FF? Adam, after all, is a FireFox user and supporter and his post is intended to point out ways in which the group can improve. FF needs to get to the point where the non-techies are finding it on their own if IE is ever to be dethroned.
to chris beach: yes, firefox is vulnerable, but IE is also (and arguably even more) vulnerable because IT’S PART OF THE OS.
with the XPI vulnerabilities, you have to actively install those files.
seems like a no-brainer: go firefox.
Nice analysis. I look at the suitability of Firefox for average computer users this way:
I recommended then installed Firebird 0.7 on my sister’s machine. She’s not a developer or anything but she’s sharp and picked it up without any problems.
I would recommend Firefox 0.9.3 to my dad. He’s pretty familiar with computers, easily deals with the lack of “Go” button, and can deal with the few rare hassles in 0.9.3.
Assuming that 1.0 comes out and addresses those few issues you mention up top, I would recommend Firefox 1.0 final to my mother, who is about as computer-phobic as they come.
So the usability curve with new releases goes from “younger sibling” to “dad” to “mom”, if you get what I’m saying :)
I agree that some of the wording on the Firefox home page could be tightened and de-jargoned. All of these problems are fixed or fixable.
This article indeed has some valid points. However, not all of them are. Especially your attack at the word ‘browser’ - to prevent them from knowing what that word is, you need to bundle FireFox to the OS. And I don’t think Microsoft would go for that :-). Of course, many users may not know what a browser is - but if they’re going to change their browser, they’ll have to find out.
After reading this, I do agree that some of the text on the FireFox-site is too technical. But since the users are looking for an improvement, my opinion is, that they learn just about the basics of Internet browsing. Though they may only use Yahoo! and Google, they need to know how to go elsewhere. A radio (or television) commercial don’t tell the user to “Go to Google, and search for ‘My Car Firm’” - they tell the address.
Firefox is not the browser for anyone who regularly flushes their history or cache. I’ve been using Firefox two months now and accidentally erased my cookies five times because of the placement of the “Clear” button and the fact that then hitting “cancel” instead of “ok” is worthless because Firefox has already erased my cookies.
Plus, if you like to resize web page fonts, you’re stuck doing multiple clicks in the View > Increase Text Size menu (5 times minimum for me), or holding the CTRL key down while moving the mouse wheel.
Firefox needs to be as customizeable at Internet Explorer (Hey, IE lets me add a text resizer to my toolbar, and a bookmarklet to kill Font Nazi web sites.) I have to browse two-handed with Firefox (if I want to be efficient) and that’s a pain in the ass.
I’m REALLY close to returning to Internet Explorer because it is more usable.
I remain fairly neutral on this topic. I agree that there are some things that need to be worked out before the release of Firefox 1.0. It’s not ready for entirely general consumption yet, but I have several friends, some of whom are not the most advanced computer users you’ll ever meet, and they very much like Firefox. Then again, some of my closest friends who are very experienced don’t want to give up IE. I was a long time (long time!) IE holdout, even though I’ve kept Mozilla and Firefox installed for years. I’ll even admit that after installing Windows XP SP2, I almost switched back to IE since they finally put in a popup blocker and made it less hellraising to get out spyware… until I realized how much I missed tabbed browsing.
I think that some of the criticism is unfounded though. I don’t feel like Mozilla is quite promoting Firefox to the masses to the degree that some people think that it is. My only criticism is that they’re taken the words “next generation preview” off of the homepage. If you go to the actual Firefox release page, it still says that, but it doesn’t on the main mozilla.org anymore.
Will Firefox ever suplant IE as the dominant browser for Windows users? Doubtful, because as explained, MS has successfully associated IE with “the internet” in the eyes of most users. It certainly won’t for Mac users who have fallen in love with Safari (a good browser that I feel is a bit too limited in its scope and is given a little too much “Apple made it” love—besides the fact that I feel KHTML is an inferior rendering engine to Gecko). Linux users might adopt the quickest, especially if the main branch of Mozilla is phased out in place of the Firefox/Thunderbird paradigm.
All I know after all of this is that Firefox is a great browser. It’s my default, and I have no hesitation in reccomending it.
Unfortunatley, as a fan of firefox, many of the points you make are bang on.
I think we need to keep in mind though, that we’re pre version 1.0 here; it’s got a way to go yet.
Personally, I’ve not started activley recommending firfox to the average user, or installed it on machines at work. It’s still beta, no matter how “good” it is. I plan on changing this after the 1.0 release,depending on how well it works under my tests.
Two months ago, my website saw 97% IE browser usage. Now its down to 91%. At 750,000 hits month (and growing, thank you) - that fairly well confirms trend that this malarkey piece in the genre of the Swift Boats Wrecking Crew simply will not be able “cover up”, patch over, or otherwise. Simple fact, IE is the worst “bowser” by far and deliberate choice. Microsoft has refused to update it except for the many required security fixes since 2001. So much for a company supposedly out to meet its customers needs.
Although I find this criticism of the Firefox experience to be a bit extreme, I have to agree with every point he makes. I have been doing end-user support for about six years now and I totally agree with his description of the typical end-user. However, I will still be pushing my customers to use Firefox (or really anything besides IE, I just prefer Firefox as the alternative at this time). End-users have daily challenges when it comes to using computers in general, so I don’t mind giving them one more, especially if it will help reduce the amount of spyware/viruses on their systems. For about the past year now, the number one problem that I am called for is spyware removal. I don’t mind getting paid to do that, but it’s annoying to say the least. I would rather tackle other problems. I blame IE as a major contributor to the spyware problem, so I switch them to Firefox. It’s either going to be their headache or mine, I choose theirs.
Jacques: Since your site is aimed at open source Web developers I’d expect that you’d see a significantly different proportion of browser usage than what is in use by the general population. That’s like doing a survey at a steakhouse and then declaring that vegetarianism is declining.
For the first 8 days of September, 55% of my site visitors are using IE and 25% are using Firefox. The large number of Firefox users is likely partly due to the fact that this article is drawing a fair bit of attention from Firefox users.
Last month the numbers were 67% IE and 13% FF. Still, this says nothing of general market penetration because my audience tends to be the early-adopter, open source Web developer crowd.
Thecounter.com shows that all Mozilla versions make up 2% of the traffic to sites using their analytics software.
Cheers, Mr Kalsey, for writing an article that I’m sure you knew would draw the passionate ire of Firefox users, but that needed to be written. Your points are spot on and it would do well for the Firefox marketing team to consider them. (Is that you, Stephen Garrity?)
I’ve been rather devoutly using Firefox since 0.3 and recommend it to anyone who’ll listen though didn’t realize how dense the Firefox homepage would be to the typical user — and let’s not forget the vast population of worldwide internet users for whom English is not a first language!
Keep up the good work.
People who don’t know what the browser thing is are currently either…
1) spending big bucks to have their PC’s cleaned of viruses because their Norton subscription ran out in 1999
2)watching a purple monkey dance across their screen along with all the hundreds of other variations of spyware/Adware/Malware that is infecting the internet and causing their PC to run at the blinding speed of an old IBM XT.
3) wondering why their PC hasn’t rebooted since Windows XP Service Pack 2 automatically installed itself. Or if it did come back up they are growing cobwebs staring at the screen wondering how to answer the security setting questions.
4) Still trying to figure out how to turn the damn thing on when the kids aren’t around.
I’m tired of the way we seem to need to dumb down everything just because people are too stoopid to learn.
In my experience Firefox has been a very stable browser with relatively few security problems. And the few problems they had were fixed within hours instead of months (or never) as is Microsoft’s response time with IE.
The best part of this article (besides needing to be a super geek to want tabbed browsing) was complaining a program is unstable in Windows ME and blaming the program. That one just cracke me up.
I’m tired of the way we seem to need to dumb down everything just because people are too stoopid to learn.
You don’t. Unless you want them to use it.
You just don’t get it. You where asked 2 help promote Firefox. The more users Firefox gets the better the product will be.
But no let’s keep users away from Firefox, cause you want it 2 be just like IE, then just use IE, and let the new users decide for themself
One last bit of criticism here. It’s not a big one, but I feel remiss not pointing it out. While I agree that most of what’s on the Firefox homepage might be a bit dense for John Q. User, you seem to ignore the first point under the “Why Use Firefox” section of the main Firefox page:
Popup Blocking Stop annoying popup ads in their tracks with Firefox’s built in popup blocker.
I don’t know about you, but to me, that sounds pretty easy to follow and would definately be a huge positive for people. I’ve worked in tech support long enough now to know that a lot of people get extremely frustrated by popups. If I’m a user, that seems pretty unambiguous to me. Granted, it’s more complicated than that, because most of the popups will come from spyware that serves popups, but that’s an easy to follow first step.
I think what’s ignored even more is the fact that in order to fix a lot of the problems that the average user has, you have to change browsing habits. That’s not easy. People WANT toolbars. People WANT colorful little smilies going out in their emails. People want all these things and unscrupulous spyware peddlers exploit this. While Firefox and other alternative browsers have stemmed that now, you probably never will, as people will always GO AFTER this software no matter what the browser is installed. So, we have a two sides of the coin argument here. Can they be changed? Yes, but it won’t be easy. Will they be changed? Not if Microsoft has its way.
We do, however, forget the most important thing here, and that’s that no matter what we say, Microsoft has a good UI team hard at work all the time that creates easy to use UI’s that people can pick up without a lot of trouble. Firefox breaks the MS mold that people are used to, and that’s where the learning curve really comes in. I like Firefox’s UI. I like how simple it is. I admit it. But, at the same time, I’m an experienced Internet junkie, not some grandparent who just got AOL to be able to see pictures of the grandkids.
I think it’s kind of sad that a lot of people simply saw the headline plastered around the Internet and assumed that this was a pure Firefox bash. It makes you wish people had read the thing all the way through and let it produce some actual interesting debate…
Excerpt: In today's entry, our author explores the hottest topic of the techblog world: is Firefox really ready for mass consumption?
You always get to the same point. I’m a totally stupid user that got to this site by error…
Why would FireFox wants that kind of clients…
I mean no way dumb user ar going to appreciate FireFox, but there’s a great part of the pie that are initiate users. Thye don’t know about FireFox but they are searching for a browser like this.
At last but least, my grand dad is 88 and knows what’s a browser… think you need to read the dictionnary more often… ;)
Most of Adam’s points are spot on and should be seriously considered by the Mozilla team. I have successfully migrated 100 people in my company over to FF and a lot of them appreciate it. However, here are some of the gripes heard in the first week.
1.) What’s the multiple page in a single window thingie? How do i use it?
The least the FF team could have done is put the ‘new tab’ button in the default toolbar. Same thing applies to the Go button.
2.) Where’s the flashy animation gone? And why do i see an ugly grey/blue box instead.
Are there any problems in bundling the flash player with the installation just as IE does.
It’s a pretty clear case of being unable to see the forrest for the trees. You get hung up on pointless minutia. No “go” button? Come off it.
Big picture time: IE is fundamentally broken. It will seriously compromise your system to run vanilla IE on all platforms where it’s available, resulting in serious perfromance and security issues without a lot, and I mean a lot, of preventative maintenance. It is the height of professional responsibility to suggest it’s the best browser for users of =any= skill level than Firefox. Unfinished or not, it offers orders of magnitude more utility for roughly the same skill level.
It’s pretty much crap on MacOS X, tho… that’s why we’ve got Camino. (Only needed because there are too many bugs in Safari.)
If you meant that Firefox was not as good an alternative as Mozilla or Opera, then you needed to be more specific.
Looks like this is finally slowing down a bit :-)
First, I want to agree with some of what Adam pointed out as Firefox shortcomings. We need to work on all of that and we are.
Adam said “I use it and do talk about it on occasion, but I think the browser has some way to go before I’d recommend it to the general population.” and I think it’s worth pointing out that my particular campaign to get an endorsement (and button) from weblogs wasn’t a campaign aimed at “the general population”. It was (is) a campaign to reach out to blog readers and other tech savvy people. I think there’s little question that we’re ready for this audience and they’re ready for us.
We still have some time left to fix bugs, clean up our help documentation, our website, our support infrastructure and our official marketing effort before 1.0 ships. The 1.0 Preview Release is swiftly approaching and that will be a nice trial run. I think we’ll learn a lot from that but I think we’re approaching “ready for primetime” status at a quick pace. The release of 1.0, and browser statistics a year after that will be the real test. I’m personally excited and enthusiastic .
Thanks to Adam for raising some good points and thanks to all of you who posted reasonable and responsible replies.
—Asa
(Sorry to argue tangents in your comments, Adam)
Eric: I know less than nothing about ASP, but I’ve been led to believe that Scott Mitchell actually knows what he’s talking about: http://aspnet.4guysfromrolla.com/articles/050504-1.aspx
Me, all I know is the output, when I’ve gotten unworkable stuff aimed at NN4 in Firefox, and switched to IE where “it works!” (because it gets different HTML and CSS and Javascript).
You said that firefox is null, because the inexperienced users, will not understand how to use it. Personally, then compared to your remark, I can say that YOUR website is null, and not adapted, with the users beginners. Indeed very little, can that the serrated roller can be useful, make ravel a text, or a page. The integrality of a section of your site holding on a page, quantity of information and too important, and the person reading that, will be to reject and close the window giving on your website.
Before criticizing, the work of the others, one looks at if his is better to it…
And small precision: click right on navigation toolbar, go on customize, drag&drop of “GO” on toolbar.
You really take people for idiots, if you think that they cant do a drag&drop.
That’s pure FUD : I recommend Firefox to a lot of unexperienced users, and they have found it very simple and easy to use.
I am not a fan of firefox. I do however and have migrated clients from OUTLOOK/IE to mozilla(with calendaring plug-in) successfully and this is my reccomended platform. I have one client who has a law pratice..since installaing and using mozill spyware and phising are at zero..and have been for the almost 1 year of installation. I use automatic updates to only download newest updates not to auto install them. With the exception of one client on one page no website issues have come up…:)
Phil — Ah, I see. You’re talking about Web Controls. ASP, generically, doesn’t do anything to its output; web controls are a different animal. They’re server-side widgets that you don’t use if you care about a clean application architecture… ;-)
Seriously, though, there’s nothing inherent in ASP that would change output code, anymore than there’s anything inherent in PHP or mod_perl. A write statement is a write statement. So ASP is only browser-unfriendly if you make it that way.
I use Firefox for over a year and a half now, love the speed, lack of popups, etc. Also run Mozilla, and no more IE for me, even with SP2. I have 40+ websites open all day. My observations are as follows: Firefox crashes at least once a day, Mozilla never does. When the error is encountered, all of my screens shut down, not just one, so I am stuck with reopening them again and again. This is a huge waist of time. So as far as I am concerned, Firefox has a few bugs, and will fix them at some point in a future, so for now a B+ from me.
FIRE FOX RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DIE BASTARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
Too bad some opinions be treated like troll posts.
Without offense, but some writers tend to overestimate the knowledge of interested readers, omiting some important arguments and explications.
“Is Linux being marketed to the general public? Is it a successful product outside the geek space?
Firefox strives to be a mainstream product.”
As a direct market strategy, If general public means home user, take a look at www.suse.com.
As an indirect market strategy, I think the linux strives to be a mainstream product too, using enterprise and geeks as vehicles for that.
So much people need to work on enterprises for money. Enterprises need to cut costs to survive. Some linux distros are marketed with promises of cost efficiency. If enterprises adopt a new tool, its workers need to adapt to it. This, normally implies on a scene where home users buy and use the same tools they use in their work.
However, i’m not a clueless linux zealot and agree that it is not a successful product outside the geek space. Probably (mainly) because hardware manufacturers don’t provide support(drivers) for linux. I know so much geeks that don’t perceive that “general public” uses other devices aside from mouse, keyboard and display. Of course, there are other usability issues with linux distros.
“In order to win marketshare from IE, Firefox must be better than IE. And not just by a little bit, but by leaps and bounds. If you want to overcome a product that comes for free with 90% of computers sold today, people need to be compelled to switch.
Pointing out that IE isn’t perfect is irrelevant. It already has the market share. Perhaps you’ve heard of inertia. Things tend to stay in the state they’re currently in. People will tend to stick with the product they currently use.”
That’s the argument that was lacking in the original article. So, I thank your for spending your time to clarify your opinion and give me some clues :)
“Pointing out that IE isn’t perfect is irrelevant.”
Again, I think that pointing out that Firefox isn’t “stable” is irrelevant too. Relevant is to point that Firefox must be a lot better than IE. However, being far superior or not, bugs will continue to exist and I don’t know how new non-geek users will respond to that.
Sorry by sound like a troll or too harsh some times,
HLZ.
Bah, who cares about IE flaws. Not one of them has caused me any problems. Yes, yes I know, my time is coming. I’ll throw caution to the wind, and deal with it.
To a point, I agree, but then, people who don’t know what a browser is, generally won’t try getting a new one, hense why i think Firefox is more than ready for advertisement. In most respects, to an experianced user, it is better than IE at certain things and an experianced user would find tab browsing very useful (I know I do, I can get a hell of a lot done in a much shorter time, even now, I have 5 tabs open, and this is slow for me).
Basically, even novice users don’t click everything they find on a web page and is used to advertising buttons by now. If they findthemselves on the Firefox site and don’t know what it is, chances are they’ll get scared and hit the back button. But this will only scare the novices, and the chances of a novice changing his/her browser is slim anyway.
Adam Kalsey
Benjamin Niemann
September 6, 2004 2:23 PM
I don’t think that a user as you described him will ever visit the Firefox homepage - why should he/she without knowledge what this ‘browser thing’ is. These people probably don’t know anything about the junk on their computer, until someone explains why it became so slow. The only way to get these users to use anything else than the pre-installed browser is by force - once their computer gets unusable because of spyware, dialers… they ask someone for help, who installs an alternative browser (e.g. Firefox) and gives them a few words of advice (just as you did for your wife).
And when it comes to usability: if you list usuability issues for Firefox and IE side-by-side, the IE list will probably be much longer. Users just got used to it - and they will get used to Firefox, once they understand that this is the only way to keep their computer clean. That’s at least what I hope ;)